You must be logged in to post

Search Forums:


 






Just Libertarian or Just Atheist: Why Does The Logic Stop?

No Tags
UserPost

2:17 pm
January 18, 2010


jeffersonianideal

posts 9

Before delving into this very relevant topic, I want to applaud the efforts of the originator of this website and all of the contributors. There is something genuinely noble in the sheer existence of this forum and the significant topics covered within. Libertarian atheists and agnostics alike, are immersed in a two front battle, one concerning their political values and the other directed at their viewpoints on religion. They face opposition from the socialist left as well as the neoconservatives of the right. And they must also struggle with secularists, deists and perhaps most troubling, fellow atheists, many of whom question the integrity of libertarian atheism when the Darwinian principle of natural selection, extend into the arena of individual choice and personal liberty.

The significant question you have posed within this forum has two separate parts. I will voice my opinion on the second part, which has more to do with religion than politics.

Noticeably absent, are libertarians who adopt atheist or even agnostic beliefs. There are many libertarian writers, politicians and captains of industry who are intelligent, logic minded and freedom promoting. However, when the topic shifts from politics, economics or individual liberties to the question of god’s existence, they seem to throw all of their clear thinking capabilities aside. It is if they have some primordial tendency in this area of human development that they just can’t seem to admit, much less prevail over. These are all admirable libertarian spokespersons. Dr. Richard Dawkins would suggest that something in the brain’s temporal lobes are to blame. Still, people such as Lew Rockwell, Thomas DiLorenzo, Norman Singleton, Steven Yates and Roger Young often blindly promote the god of the Old and New Testaments even when that god is guilty the of the same tyrannical, oppressive and authoritarian actions they rail against when committed by mere mortals. Consider the illogical manner in which this blog post on lewrockwell.com is published without forethought or scrutiny. Here is the link:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blo…..45437.html

I submitted a comment to this blog entry to Lew Rockwell but my submission went unacknowledged and ultimately, unpublished. Fortunately, I was able to express my view on YouTube. The link is supplied here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..r_embedded

The difficulty I have with libertarian theists is not their belief in a supreme deity or even their adherence to unproven and irrational biblical history. What is most disturbing is how these supposed champions of liberty choose to ignore the despotism, oppressive edicts and assaults on personal freedom that are so blatantly apparent in these spiritual scriptures. God always gets a pass from a libertarian believer no matter the infraction committed. This is a courtesy that is not extended to any human including Thomas Jefferson, Ayn Rand or Aristotle to name a few.

It is time for atheist and agnostic opinions to be expressed and heard. If for no other reason, then in an attempt to expose religion’s hypocrisies that run counter to the principles that devoted libertarians respect and cherish.

4:50 pm
January 18, 2010


mdr

posts 175

Thanks much for the compliments, the encouragement and the belief in the goals of this forum. I'm glad to have you here being a part of it! I could only HOPE to see this site live up to these expectations.

Yeah, that posting from Lew Rockwell is VERY condescending and assuming, at the very least. It's extended to the point of being detrimental internally to the party as a whole and libertarians cannot afford to do this. I think this has a lot to do with the historic polarization among libertarians, it's why I often call myself "Classic Liberal" instead. We need to address these people at every turn when they make such statements assuming theism part and parcel with our politics because it turns other atheists away from any interest in it.

I believe we can look toward Ron Paul as a very clear example of a theist Libertarian who is not condescending or assuming. He has led the way toward making alliances with groups of a very broad political spectrum, if he can make alliances outside of our political spectrum, the LEAST that Christian Libertarians can do is make alliances with others whom share their politics. The only problem I have with most theist Libertarians is their problem with me, it's pretty common and rather tiresome.

I don't particularly expect other atheists to understand or even RESPECT my political beliefs but it is absolutely bogus of people who supposedly believe in freedom and individualism to put me down for my atheism or ignore my existence.

"Don't believe in the two big G's"

1:18 pm
January 19, 2010


jeffersonianideal

posts 9

I want to be clear that I am a devoted admirer of Lew Rockwell and his superior awareness of libertarian issues. I view his website nearly every day and I look forward to seeing him as a frequent guest on Judge Napolitano’s, “Freedom Watch” program. I do realize that Mr. Rockwell is a believer. Only seldom does he allows his religious beliefs to cloud his political wisdom, a prominent characteristic represented dependably on his website. In fairness, a blog posting from a reader possessing an opposing view to a religiously tainted article, will more often than not, get published. But not always.

As I wrote in my previous posting, I am not so concerned about libertarians who believe in a supreme entity. That choice is their right. It is certainly an inalienable one, even if there are doubts about whether it was bestowed upon them by a certified heavenly creator. Libertarians do not play favorites when it comes to supporting constitutional rights. Religious freedom is just as important as any other liberty. Freedom from religion is just as vital, however. It is difficult to comprehend the ability of some libertarian theists to hold their own personal god’s decrees and actions to a different standard than they would those of their political opposition. In my view, this amounts to nothing more than affirmative action on behalf of divinity. It is further proof of mankind’s infinite capacity for self-deception.

Here is another blog post from Lew Rockwell’s website. This one may actually be a better example of lazy thinking than the Cecil B. DeMille film clip. The link is provided here:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blo…..47557.html

Again, my reply to this post was never published or acknowledged. Please allow me to post it on this forum:

The Bible and its majestically benevolent central character, a just, merciful and loving god is, like most totalitarians, virtually exempt from scrutiny. To sin by convenient exclusion is to suggest that even the most fanatic of followers could never fall victim to this king of kings’ slavish whims. If you believe in this fallacy then you believe that no mortal ever died as a result of religion’s confinement and destructive governing of, the mind, soul and spirit. Any admirer of truth should admit, using no more than biblical scripture as confirmation, god’s autocratic tendencies. God delights in commanding his followers to perform absurd, barbaric and sometimes lethal rituals with blind obedience. Any king should be despised no matter how distant, sits his throne. A preference of a few less shackles within the prison cell of tyranny is no indication of greater individual liberties and personal freedoms. At least an earthly king is assured of an eventual demise.

As Thomas Jefferson said, “Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.“

1:11 am
January 20, 2010


mdr

posts 175

Still, it seems to me, I can't go to a gathering of Libertarians without experiencing one or two people asking me why I don't believe in God and explaining to me the superiority of this belief.

I think that even religious Libertarians would be better served by separating their politics and faith. Seems a lot of them base their politics in their faith, which as you pointed out, is rather preposterous.

"Don't believe in the two big G's"

9:34 am
January 21, 2010


jeffersonianideal

posts 9

Yes, and in a similar vein, even a resolute theist should support and honor the separation of church and state, the same way a supporter of non-violent protest accepts the notion of the right to own a firearm. President Kennedy once referred to the separation of church and state as an “arrangement”. This word is very precise because it calls for both sides to respect a mutual understanding. Government will stay out of religion and in a symbiotic manner, religion is to stay out of government. The old adage, "I may not agree with what you say but I’ll defend to the death, your right to say it", is not adhered to nearly enough. Similarly, I may not agree that there is a god but I will defend to the death your right to suppose anything your mind desires.

Expanding on why articulate and prominent libertarians cling to old and suspect theocratic notions, permit me to reference Dr. Richard Dawkins. Dawkins, (hardly a libertarian in certain respects) in his brilliant treatise, The God Delusion, points out quite perceptively, that we are living during the infancy of atheistic equality. Comparatively, Dawkins points out that homosexuals were admonished from vocalizing their views and expressing their lifestyle choices, just a few decades ago. Atheists and agnostics are on that same point in that timeline. Some libertarians along with many republicans and a fair number democrats are simply too apprehensive to express their ambivalence about god and religion, for fear of retribution or rejection. Also, one cannot dismiss the possibility that some libertarians pretend to be pious, merely as a way to benefit economically. Noted researcher, author and libertarian agnostic, Michael Shermer, reminds theists and secularists alike that nonsensical religious precepts had a 4000 year head start on science. Science and logic have shortened the distance considerably but we are not yet in the home stretch.

1:58 pm
January 21, 2010


mdr

posts 175

I agree 100% and, if naught but for the benefit of freedom in general, I think it best for Libertarians in congress to avoid dogmatic arguments for freedom and let it stand on its own. Liberty can only be stained by partisanship and the death throes of religion may drag the philosophy down with it, if it becomes too entrenched. All of this being so, I believe it is our duty as non-religious adherence to vociferously denounce the ridiculous notion of classic liberalism, political Libertarianism, being inseparable from Christian theology.

I think you're doing an awesome job of that sir! It's all we can do really.

We cannot alienate them though, we must not insult the person of course. I do not care what a person believes religiously, I would much prefer them to believe in freedom and liberty but I'll try not to hold even that against them.

"Don't believe in the two big G's"

5:16 pm
January 25, 2010


jayh

posts 3

I have tried to point out various atheists (often leftish) the parallel argument I encounter.

Religious people find atheism dangerous because without an intrusive vengeful god, "people will do anything"

And the statist find libertarianism dangerous because without an intrusive, controlling government "people will do anything"

I grew up in the 60s, when the left was getting pounded, harrassed, arrested and criminalized by the government. I cannot understand how they can turn around and expect that 'their' government will somehow be different.

6:12 pm
January 25, 2010


mdr

posts 175

jayh said:

I have tried to point out various atheists (often leftish) the parallel argument I encounter.

Religious people find atheism dangerous because without an intrusive vengeful god, "people will do anything"

And the statist find libertarianism dangerous because without an intrusive, controlling government "people will do anything"

I grew up in the 60s, when the left was getting pounded, harrassed, arrested and criminalized by the government. I cannot understand how they can turn around and expect that 'their' government will somehow be different.


Welcome to the forums Jay! Your perspective is identical to my own, I came to libertarianism from a humanistic angle as well.

We are the true left, we are the inheritors of the humanistic traditions of the enlightenment. Making the argument, OUR big government won't stomp on people's rights is the same as making the argument, OUR dog won't crap on the carpet if we leave it alone for a couple days. It's not true, all it takes is a few seconds and it WILL happen, only big government is like having 300 dogs in your house, you don't even have to leave them alone and you can be as attentive as you possibly can but it will happen, until finally you get sick from the disgusting environment of your home and die. : ^)

"Don't believe in the two big G's"

3:22 am
January 26, 2010


keddaw

Glasgow

posts 33

jayh said:
I grew up in the 60s, when the left was getting pounded, harrassed, arrested and criminalized by the government. I cannot understand how they can turn around and expect that 'their' government will somehow be different.


Because the people who grew up in the 60's ARE the government now.

Slightly OT, but the technological advances since the 60's are the biggest threat to liberty, along with people who insist on making rules that are for our own good. Or, even better, for the good of the children.

I have a degree in economics and finance, I am pretty good at Cost Benefit Analysis so why don't you just give me the statistics and I'll make my own mind up about driving without a seatbelt, taking drugs or any of the million other things you think you have to protect me from?

7:13 am
January 26, 2010


jeffersonianideal

posts 9

Once again I will direct readers to an article written by a libertarian believer. This time it is Bill Sardi and is entitled, “How Life Has Suddenly Changed In America”. Here is the link:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/sar…..di147.html

Sardi writes: "I drop my son off at preschool, a church-run school. He won’t be attending public school like his parents did because we want him to learn values, not to believe he accidentally evolved from an ape-like creature, and we don’t want him exposed to all the propaganda injected into school curriculums about global warming, overpopulation, gay agendas, mandated vaccinations, the idea that the earth is to be valued above human life, or blind loyalty to government above God. Some of this thinking creeps into church schools too, so we are vigilant."

Like Sardi does so appropriately, I will also admit my contempt for government schools. I believe, like so many other libertarians, that the government should not be educating children or other growing things. In addition, I am steadfast in my belief that those without children in a government school should not be forced to pay for the school’s perpetual upkeep through exorbitant property taxes. Sardi, who writes many eye-opening and helpful articles on health and nutrition, has every right to send his children to the private school of his choice whether it be a secular or religious one. I will defend his right to do so with unyielding fervency. Nevertheless, I find it paradoxical that an astute, educated, open thinker such as Sardi refuses to see the similarities between the propaganda espoused by government and those promulgated by institutionalized religion.

Please explain why the bible is fundamentally more logical than science when it sermonizes for example, about the 5800 year age of the earth? If one believe that the theory of natural selection is not appropriate for young ears, that is a personal prerogative. Why then, is the remedy, subjecting an impressionable child to a cockamamie tale about an all powerful but simple entity, that in only six days, formed every galaxy and all elements that comprise life? Even if one discounts completely, Darwin’s evolutionary premise, there is no reason to abandon all good sense and give all support to the creationist’s supposition. There is enough inconsistency, implausibility and obedience to absolute power in bible text, to conclude that government had more influence in the phrasing and editing of scripture than a god ever intended. As it applies to conflicting bible declarations, reading between the lines is rarely necessary. The words themselves present the best evidence for the book’s illogical ideas, unjust prosecutorial themes and insistence in blind adherence. The bible has had a more than a hundred authors along the way. If that isn’t enough, it was also clandestinely censored by kings. Entire books were left out in an effort to preserve religion’s ability to control the masses.

To highlight Sardi’s words once again: “He won’t be attending public school like his parents did because we want him to learn values….”
If Sardi, as he admits, was government school educated, where and how did he learn the principles he claims are absent in government schools? How did he manage to unlearn all the junk taught to him? Would Sardi maintain that it was simply by attending the church of his choice? Perhaps the church is the antidote in Sardi’s case, for the poison being administered in the government schools. The church may only be worthy of partial recognition, however. What will a religious school omit from a child’s education that will need to be supplemented in adulthood?

When I abandoned the last of my socialist democrat tendencies in my late 20s, I did not turn to the bible to prepare me for a new political awareness as a constitutionalist libertarian. I sought out knowledge from learned mortals. Some were believers in god. Some were Christian, some Jewish and others non-denominational. Libertarians that influenced me were also atheists and agnostics. Most of them never declared their spiritual tendencies at all.
Thomas Jefferson, as Judge Andrew Napolitano reminded viewers on his “Freedom Watch” program, utilized the term “natural rights” in case it turned out that no god existed to be able to hand down these absolute freedoms to man. If libertarian religionists believe all that is required to become a reasonable thinker is an education immersed in religious traditions, they’d better have a plan B ready to implement. Religion like government, has the eerie capability to distort truth, brainwash the gullible and induce its supporters to believe and say the darndest things. Religion and government. They do the thinking so their devotees don’t have to.

7:46 am
January 26, 2010


keddaw

Glasgow

posts 33

Jeff, please take a look at this : http://libertarianatheist.com/…..r-freedom/ as your point on education is interesting. I have heard many people say the state should stay out of education (indoctrination is the inevitable result etc.) but I have issues with the treatment of children in a libertarian system and have a feeling that the state has a responsibility for them in some form, regardless of how small the state is.

10:56 am
January 26, 2010


mdr

posts 175

I tend to believe that intelligence will find a way no matter what, no matter the adversity. The greatest minds of the past, often times, never had a leg up, they were never given a better chance. You talk to some of the greatest minds in history and ask them how much they learned in school.

Ask the carpenter or the electrician how he became so good at what he did, he will tell you experience, not schooling. The trade schools are important and they give the tradesman a good base to work from, the industries know this since they fund it, but they get their greatest gifts from their natural talents and experience.

I think the best way to deal with education is to not. Leave it alone. Leave the parents alone, leave the kids alone and leave everyone alone.

The only time a juvenile will act like a kid is when you treat them like a kid. Many more people will BE bad parents if you treat all of them as if they are bad parents.

You take away the responsibilities of being a parent and there will be even more parents, ones that didn't necessarily weigh the impact.

I think that for every great plan for restructuring society, there are greater drawbacks. One step forward, two steps back. To quote the Beatles, Let It Be.

I think I was attracted to the Libertarian ideal for the same reason I've been attracted to evolutionary theory and Taoist philosophy. They are all simple and work.

"Don't believe in the two big G's"

2:30 pm
January 26, 2010


jeffersonianideal

posts 9

Thank you Keddaw, for your comments.

I do not have children and will not attempt to express my views as if I were a parent. I have the utmost respect for those parents who take their child rearing responsibilities seriously. The problem is that I do not encounter enough parents who do. Thomas Jefferson advocated a nation of educated citizens so they would be able to possess the sensibility and intellect necessary to prevent government from becoming too overbearing. He certainly did not have in mind, the type of intrusionary, government run school system we have in place today.

Your point is a valid one and while I do not want to stray too far from the original forum topic, I will respond briefly. It is much easier to make the case for libertarian values and beliefs as they apply to consenting adults. Impressionable children are especially susceptible to adult and societal influences. I do not recall who said it but to a three year old who doesn’t want to go to sleep, a lullaby is propaganda. Children do not possess the reasoning skills to make up their own minds about most of the important matters of life. I maintain that accountable and trustworthy parents know more about how their children should be raised than government pretends to.

My only issue with Bill Sardi’s rant is in his lazy thinking which leads him to the illogical conclusion that teaching a child biblical nonsense is better than teaching him big government nonsense. Sardi, a libertarian, curiously did not mention an option for his son that offered a superior private school alternative without the disadvantage of theist ambiguity. Many do not believe that it is possible to be a moral, honorable person without believing in god. To declare this conviction to a child or to an adult may be one of the most harmful fallacies of all.

4:56 pm
January 26, 2010


mdr

posts 175

jeffersonianideal said:

To declare this conviction to a child or to an adult may be one of the most harmful fallacies of all.


I agree wholeheartedly though the zeitgeist has brought us to the point we find ourselves in history today. Society will continue to evolve and, I think, that far fewer and fewer children today believe what their parents say to be absolute truth, let alone anyone else, than ever before in history.

Jefferson was a free thinker and an individualist, he was rare in his day. There are thousands and thousands of us today.

"Don't believe in the two big G's"

11:35 am
January 27, 2010


jeffersonianideal

posts 9

Perceptions are certainly changing as far as libertarianism and religion are concerned. The reason for this paradigm shift is due in large part to the superior awareness that the younger generation possesses. I’ll confess, I thought the chances of a libertarian political surge were all but extinguished as the Bush administration concluded and as Obama was elected. I was more than pleasantly surprised when, instead of becoming dormant, the concepts of individual liberty, self determination and personal responsibility experienced a resurgence. This seemed to happen almost overnight. Libertarian heavy hitters such as Dr. Ron Paul, Judge Andrew Napolitano, John Stossel, James Bovard, Lew Rockwell, Peter Schiff and Nick Gillespie have been receiving record amounts of air time. The late, great Harry Browne used to declare that he was hopeful but not optimistic, regarding America’s future. If Harry were alive today, he may have to displace a portion of his skepticism with a bit of exuberance. Libertarians may fall short of achieving a consensus with their mainstream rivals but libertarian ideals are now considered less crazy. They are finally being given the respect they have always deserved.

On the religious front, it will again be the age bracket that is currently in their teens, twenties and perhaps early thirties, who will be generally responsible for helping to reverse the long existing trend of self-righteousness, American style. Obsolete theocratic thinking patterns are slowly going the way of the dinosaur (pardon the pun). Curiously, the dictionary defines theocracy as “government by god”. I would not be opposed to a god administration if I could be sure that god would adopt steadfast libertarian virtues. Evidence suggests that god has more than a few traits found in both, didactic, war-mongering neocons and in hypocritically collectivist, democrats who are often too self absorbed to notice the audacious arrogance of their power. Dr. Richard Dawkins is in agreement that the influence associated with religious fundamentalism is shifting. The triumph of religious zealot culture is slowly being counterbalanced with human logic and earthly wisdom.

I’ll direct the reader once again to experience the promotion of unfounded theism by an otherwise prudent libertarian. This time around it is the Mises Institute’s, Bob Murphy. The link follows:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/mur…..hy166.html

I will not pretend to adequately understand the mathematical theories put forth by fellow libertarian Steve Landsburg. Bob Murphy’s convoluted thinking, especially in his last few paragraph’s are, by contrast, clear as a bell in a bat laden belfry.

9:59 pm
January 27, 2010


mdr

posts 175

Post edited 10:04 pm – January 27, 2010 by mdr


jeffersonianideal said:

Bob Murphy’s convoluted thinking, especially in his last few paragraph’s are, by contrast, clear as a bell in a bat laden belfry.


I laughed out loud.

I think that when this "perpetual motion" machine we call our economy has a true, unanticipated, unplanned collapse in the form of a liquidity trap, we will see an even further emergence of Libertarian minded folk. They say that trends in Japan foreshadow our own. . . in electronics at least, I think we will find that it happening here economically as well and very soon.

"Don't believe in the two big G's"

3:26 pm
January 30, 2010


jayh

posts 3

Post edited 3:28 pm – January 30, 2010 by jayh


jeffersonianideal said:
… I do not recall who said it but to a three year old who doesn’t want to go to sleep, a lullaby is propaganda. Children do not possess the reasoning skills to make up their own minds about most of the important matters of life. I maintain that accountable and trustworthy parents know more about how their children should be raised than government pretends to.

My only issue with Bill Sardi’s rant is in his lazy thinking which leads him to the illogical conclusion that teaching a child biblical nonsense is better than teaching him big government nonsense. Sardi, a libertarian, curiously did not mention an option for his son that offered a superior private school alternative without the disadvantage of theist ambiguity. Many do not believe that it is possible to be a moral, honorable person without believing in god. To declare this conviction to a child or to an adult may be one of the most harmful fallacies of all.


Human evolution has produced the concept of culture (it exists to a lesser extent in other primates). Basically human behavior can change, can adapt far faster than evolutionary change because we have a meta-behavior, the instinct for culture bound up in our early development. Children learn to adapt to peers, to parents, to lifestyle into which they are born becaue this is how the tribe is constructed. There is not so much the hardwired group behavior, but the hardwired desire for group acceptance that is the human adaptive advantage. They learn to like the food the group eats, to adopt the language, the customs, and even the beliefs.

Wolves have a complex social structure, but they can't really change it. It's the same, pretty much regardless of location or circumstance.

[As a side point, why is it that some libertarians, in addition to having trouble giving up the god thing, become also wrapped up in anti-science wingnuttery?]

10:16 pm
January 30, 2010


mdr

posts 175

jayh:

I think that the anti-science mentality is part and parcel with religion.

How many non-theists do you know that are anti-science? Not to say that all religious are anti-science but I would guess that there are more religious anti-science to some degree than not. If they are religious, there is a good chance they are also going to be anti-science in some way shape or form.

"Don't believe in the two big G's"

2:38 pm
February 9, 2010


jeffersonianideal

posts 9

The Paradox Of Godless Conservatism

Belief in god is often linked, prematurely, to concepts such as patriotism, capitalism and the American way. During the cold war, the Soviets were as referred to as, “those godless communists”. Since religious freedoms were severely curtailed under Soviet rule it was a reactionary response to thoughtlessly apply the atheistic label not only to the Soviet system but to the Soviet citizenry as a whole.

Back in the U.S.A. and contrary to popular belief, there was never a time at which a government school student was prohibited from praying in a government school. Though Organized prayer was never sanctioned, there was nothing to stop individual students from silently asking a heavenly spirit for divine intervention prior to a academic test or before a sporting event. I am quite certain that many quietly mumbled their prayers while others went as far as to reflexively blurt out the lord’s name in order to win some positive effect on their school performance. Similarly, there is no way of knowing how many Soviet men, women and children were secretly or openly religious. To equate the belief in communist doctrines with the absolute disbelief in a supreme being is not only narrow minded but outright erroneous.

Ayn Rand loathed the Soviet system with all of her human energy. Russian born Rand immigrated to the United States about nine years after the Bolshevik revolution, Rand never hesitated to express her contempt for Marxist/Leninist political, economic and social methodology. She was a fervent supporter of private enterprise of and a devout American patriot. Yet this loyalist to American liberty and entrepreneurial values was also a vociferous atheist. This paradox throws a wrench in the works of religious devotees who pronounce with gleeful certainty that one cannot be a patriotic American without being a god loving American. If you happen to be an atheist but only by the good grace of their god, an American citizen, you must therefore be a commie, liberal, socialist, pinko and peacenik. A conservative libertarian who has strong doubts against god’s very existence is an inconsistency. Nobody on the left or the right knows precisely how to take or what to do with, such an anomaly.

What hard and fast evidence ever gave credence to the notion that all free-market, capitalists need to believe in god and all socialists, communists and income distributors must be atheists? Yet somehow, this dim-witted observation has managed to permanently stick for the past 60 years or so.

Libertarian conservative Barry Goldwater had the moral fiber in the 1980s to tell “all good Christians” that they should give Jerry Falwell a “good kick in the ass” after Falwell decided that he alone knew how every American should behave at home, in public and in the voting booth. Late in his life, Goldwater confessed that what scared him the most about the emerging U.S. political landscape was the inordinate amount of power being acquired by America’s religious right. Goldwater, though a traditionalist, knew the immediate dangers that could result if religion were allowed to increase its dictatorial influence by mixing too closely with government. Religion is seldom content to be a protected island unto itself. It wants to spread its dogmatic tentacles to all aspects of American life, often under the clever guise benevolence and altruism. At the same time however, religious freedom must be assured. To accomplish this, it was vital for government to adopt and maintain a hands off policy, as it applied to government influence and control of any church matters. A citizen who genuinely believes in the spirit and letter of the constitution should be as committed to keeping religion out of government as he is about keeping government out of religion. Any religious person who also refers to themselves as patriotic, should be as loyal and passionate to the cause of liberty as they are about their right to worship.

Libertarians, fiscal conservatives and those who believe in small government should agree that the best way to preserve their own right to live freely, is by permitting others to live as they see fit. Even if, by mob rule, the religious throngs were to have their day and homosexuality, abortion, drugs and premarital sex were wiped away from what they consider to be, the nation’s stained moral fabric, the devil known as socialism would still exist. Until collectivism’s evil plot is foiled, no other force in heaven or on earth, real or imagined can save us.

12:58 pm
February 14, 2010


jeffersonianideal

posts 9

An article by Paul Kokoski on the history of Valentine’s Day appears on Lewrockwell.com. The notably interesting piece, provides some insight into Love Day’s dark and tragic beginnings. Not being able to leave well enough alone however, Kokoski, a Canadian and practicing Catholic, just could not resist the urge to play cupid in an attempt to strengthen the bonds between State and church. Shooting an editorial arrow, Kokoski sanctifies this strange collusion so long as it conspires to advance his idea of what marriage should and should not be for Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

He writes, “In 496 A.D., Pope Gelasius marked Feb. 14 as a celebration in honor of his martyrdom. The legend of St. Valentine is a tale of true love that transcends mere sentiment. Its noble purpose should inspire everyone in this new time of religious persecution to be equally vigilant and heroic in upholding and defending the traditional definition of marriage presently under assault from secular humanists.”

I know am taking a great liberty when I respond to Kokoski by attempting to convince him that we secular humanists are just not that powerful. Members of many religious sects are also in support of non-traditional marriage agreements and civil unions. Even some Catholics are divided on the issue as well as whether or not priests and nuns themselves, should be allowed to marry. Making a scapegoat out of agnostics and atheists puts Kokoski in the same league with the Roman rogues of the first century. The same ones he reviles for persecuting the good Priest Valentine. While I expect such indolent ideas to discharge from the logically challenged, I also require some acknowledgment of the contradiction they have created. Perish the thought Mr. Kokoski, that you could possibly have the type of life and religious belief system you choose, by merely allowing others to live as they see fit. Just as long as their choices do not deprive you of your life, liberty or property. That would require of course, being principled and genuine in your beliefs.

For the purpose of adhering to this forum topic, I want to be clear, there is no reason to suspect that Kokoski is a libertarian by any stretch of the imagination. A search of the archives indicates it is Kokoski’s first appearance on Lew’s site. There is nothing that would suggest he is in favor of free markets or personal liberty. His big concern is religious freedom which is already a prevalent right, even within socialist Canada. A right, I am proud to admit, the vast majority or libertarians and libertarian atheists support wholeheartedly. Rockwell, a prominent libertarian himself is of course, ultimately responsible for his website’s subject matter but certainly has the right to publish anything he chooses. It would be presumptuous and hypocritical of me to lay the blame on Rockwell or his blogmaster for Kokoski’s submission and its content.

If just one response gets posted on Lew's site containing an explanation of what is askew with Kokoski’s Valentine's Day picture, it will make the decision to publish Kokoski's viewpoint easier to bare. Either way, a surprising number of Catholics and secularists may both be in agreement about the dangers of mixing religion and government. Kokoski’s Valentine’s Day matchmaking experiment between his personal brand of church and a complicit State, may not turn out to have the heavenly origins or outcomes he expects.

No Tags


About the The Libertarian Atheist forum

Most Users Ever Online:

13


Currently Online:

3 Guests

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 11

Topics: 48

Posts: 349

Membership:

There are 48 Members

There has been 1 Guest

There is 1 Admin

There are 2 Moderators

Top Posters:

RestrictedAccess – 28

Kultabugi – 13

upgrade01a – 12

Warren Dew – 12

Homunclus – 11

Aught3 – 11

Administrators: mdr (175 Posts)

Moderators: keddaw (33 Posts), jeffersonianideal (9 Posts)