The Libertarian Atheist

zeroverse said:

I have a "hard time believing in god" for the same reasons that I have a hard time believing in unicorns.

Neither myth is supported by any evidence.

That said, I think unicorns could totally be engineered by a creative genetic scientist!

See it seems to me that most people find it easier to accept those things they can touch, see, smell and hear. Otherwise it must not exist. Or those things that are proven through science. Yet it seems that time and time again. When something that comes that is sufficiently advanced or unknown. We apply other terms to it.  Can you answer why life is on this planet? Can you answer where the universe comes from? And if the big bang is true, where did the matter and mass come from in the first place. These are all questions that can not at this time be answered. I choose to believe in a greater intelligent power. Which seems more rational than accepting that life is some type of fluke.

Although famine is often the result of multiple causes you can't deny that climate, weather, and unpredictable 'acts of god' exacerbate the problem.

Locusts and drought in Niger

Drought in Afghanistan

Drought in Ethiopia

Floods in North Korea

Comet impact!

What do these natural disaters have to do with free will?

Well, certainly. I said that a lot of famine is caused by  human factors not all of it. One could argue over the percentages (for example of the examples Aught3 offered, which ones have been enhanced by global warming?) but that is an issue to other topic…

Well, certainly. I said that a lot of famine is caused by  human factors not all of it. One could argue over the percentages (for example of the examples Aught3 offered, which ones have been enhanced by global warming?) but that is an issue to other topic…

Perhaps I wasn't totally clear, all I meant was that human free will couldn't account for all famine in the world.

Incidentally, I thought since Daystars was he a moderator he'd be around more often, but I guess he's busy?

Daystars said:

Post edited 11:24 pm – August 23, 2009 by Daystars

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How come people have such a hard time believing in god? Since you can not see the almighty? That people don't raise from the dead anymore?

How come you have such an easy time believing in god?

Okay That wasn't fair. Undoubtedly you put a lot of thought into you faith. In fact, to call it simply faith would be misleading wouldn't it? Because you also put logic and consideration into it, correct?

Well guess what, so do I. The fact that people don't (and never did) raise from the dead has nothing to do with it.

It aggravates me to no end. That we as a people continually act under the precepts of ignorance.  Are we as a people really so intelligent to think that we have all of the answers? Even in this age of information, we are still ignorant. The wise man admits that he is ignorant.  Our limited perceptions can not accept or even possible encapsulate what god is or is not.  We have that which has been handed down for thousands of years. In this sanctified book, we find the grounds to live good and wholesome lives.  We are given the promise of eternal life and salvation. Salvation from the human condition, from our flesh and our minds.

I find it hilarious that you claim WE are ignorant for assuming we know for a fact god doesn't exist when you're making an equally blind assumption that he does. "Oh wait!" I hear you cry! "Mine is not a blind assumption because it is based on a book that has been around for two thousand years!"

Well, I got news for you. There are Hindu texts a lot older than that, so surely using your logic they must be more correct than the bible right? Or what about the Ancient Egyptian gods? Why do you worship Jehovah and not Apophis?

The feelings you have towards them are the exact same I have towards the Bible – worthless pieces of shit written by crazy old men living in caves. That somehow, inexplicably have fooled billions of people down the years.  And the feelings you probably have towards Hindus are ones I have towards people of your faith – nice people, but misguided fools.

For those who would say that we don't need salvation. Think about it. In the two thousand years since Christ walked this earth. We have killed, murdered, raped and continued to commit sins.  We commit the same sins in the newest ways.  Sometimes our moral expediency is to do so in the name of Christ.  How can we be so ignorant? How can we honestly believe that we are acting in "GODS" word?

You seem to be claiming that because the human race has had a violent past that this is not only proof of our need of salvation, but that it validates you faith in Jesus. This is bull.

Firstly, I could pick any historical religious figure and do what you just did.
"We have killed, murdered, raped and continued to commit sins since Muhammad (peace be upon him) walked the earth. Therefore Islam is the one a true religion."
"We have killed, murdered, raped and continued to give into desire since Buddha walked the earth. Therefore Buddhism is the only true path to Nirvana."
See what I mean?

Secondly, the human race "killed, murdered & raped" for the 150 thousand years prior to Christ's supposed visit? So what exactly does that prove? Except that we evolved from primates who "killed, murdered & raped" and in turn evolved from mammals that "killed, murdered & raped".

Sometimes our moral expediency is to do so in the name of Christ.  How can we be so ignorant? How can we honestly believe that we are acting in "GODS" word?

You realise your complaining about other Christians to a forum full of Atheists right…? But never-the-less I believe I have an answer for you. People commit horrible acts in the name of God because they need to validate their actions. Exactly like people committing good acts need to. 

For that concept that life has no meaning, that all of this is so random?  That life will just occur in the universe and be intelligent?  Nihilism is that believe that life has no meaning and that all morals are just created by man.  If that is truly your calling, then why continue to struggle in this world? In this world of the flesh which promises only pain and suffering. Yes, for that is the life in the flesh it is a world of pain.  Pain outweighs and will continue to outweigh happiness.

As had already been stated: Nihilism is VERY different from Atheism. Oh, and the point about 'why don't you just kill yourself" I find pretty fucked up. It also shows your naivety fairly well I feel. I LOVE life. More than you ever could because I believe it is the only one I get, so I'm going to live it to the fullest. Suffering and happiness come in equal measure I think, and you cannot have one without the other. But even at my lowest point I would never consider suicide. It would be a waste of the miracle that is life in this miracle-less universe.

On the flip-side, why don't you just kill yourself so you could be with God. Oh, I know suicide is a sin, but then God forgives doesn't he? You could be with him tomorrow. Why don't you do it?

Only through accepting our lord and savior can we be truly happy.  By giving it all back to God and putting on his shoulders.  Call him what you will, he is a big god.

So only Christians are 'truly' happy? Do you have any idea how arrogant and preposterous that makes you sound? So the four-point-something BILLION people who don't believe in your personal adult fair tale are only, what? Marginally happy? Partly Happy?

Are are we all actually depressed it's just nobody has told us?

What is more he created each of us in the mold he wanted us to follow.  God created atheists in order to test the faithful. He wants us to come to him willingly. Not because he forced us to believe but to come in faith. To trust his word and his commandments, it was his breath that poured life into the universe. Not just one part of it but the entire universe.

What?!? God created Atheists to test the faithful? So you're telling me that God created me the way I am so I'd knock dents in your personal faith? Oh wait! "Not because he forced us to believe but to come in faith." So he doesn't want to force you to believe but he "creates Atheists." So how does he do that without forcing us not to believe? So, here I am, without the supposedly sacred Freewill that you seem to be aloud testing your faith. That's all fine and well, but what about my soul? I go to Hell just 'cause God wanted a few Atheists running about causing trouble for the faithful. Your God sounds like a bit of a dick to me.

Some may ask if god is infinitely good and benevolent why he allows war and famine.  It is because he promised man freewill. He enabled us to act as we choose. Whether or not we commit evils against each other? That is not god's will that is our will.  Others may argue that he punishes unfairly? But our parents punish us when we are young. And society punishes when we are old. Not out of spite or malice, but with the hope it will enable us to lead more meaningful lives.

I doubt you'll find anyone on here that asks that question. Because as far as we're concerned there is no God to allow anything. But what does freewill have to do with famine? Famine is usually caused by the actions of nature (for you read God) not the actions of man.

But Humans in our foolish arrogance and pride, think to ignore the lessons we are taught.

Maybe the reasons that Theists need to believe in a fairy tale type superpower in the sky is because your constantly putting humans down. Yes, we're flawed, but fuck sake, we're a lot better than religion makes us out to be.

Fact is science can not disprove anything. It can only be used to prove that which can be observed.  Even within the natural world and within science. There are contradictions that exist. Dichotomies that should not be, yet there they are.  So long as possibilities exist then there must exist that there is indeed GOD.  My god created the universe and man's science can only explain it with in the finite bounds that it applies. We can not quantify that which is unknown or unknowable.  It could be argued that perception creates reality.

The argument that because science doesn't know everything therefore God exists is VERY flawed logic. Using this logic then the likelihood of God existing 1000yrs ago was greater and his likelihood of him existing 1000yrs from now would be less so. This is known as "God of the gaps" theory amongst theologians. And they stay clear of it. So should you.

But for a moment let's  say that a god-like being (ie. a supernatural creator of existence) does exist. How in the name of the flying spaghetti monster DO YOU KNOW IT IS YOUR GOD? You believe what you believe (I'm assuming here) because that is what your parents taught you to believe. Why are you so sure its the Christian god that exists?

Is it that feeling you get inside when you commune with God? That euphoria that builds up first inside your stomach and makes it way towards you heart? Is that how you KNOW without a single shadow of a doubt that YOU'RE right and everyone else is wrong?

What? You don't think I use to get that when I believed? You don't think the Muslims, Hindus et all get that too? It's a chemical reaction inside your brain, that's all.

If perception creates reality then the people that believe in some form of divinity, are correct. Atheist's become incorrect as you are outnumbered.  And agnostics just make the entire matter worse. Since they have not an clue what to believe, in that regards Atheists at least make the choice to believe in nothing.

Where did people reach the ridiculous conclusion that perception creates reality? I hope you realise that's blasphemous. For not only are you suggesting the moment that Atheists outnumber Theists then we'll cause God to cease to exist your implying that it was Theists in the first place who created God.

In conclusion I honestly believe this is not the time to be an end walker. Admit your ignorance and find something to follow.

Yeah, well I'm not going to take much stock in the beliefs of someone who thinks that by creating a creator your actually answering the question of how did existence come into being instead of raising more of them (let alone someone who believes 'perception creates reality'). And stop calling us ignorant. It really makes you look like a festering hypocrite.

Post edited 11:26 pm – December 1, 2009 by Daystars

Socialistarian said:

How come you have such an easy time believing in god?

Okay That wasn't fair. Undoubtedly you put a lot of thought into you faith. In fact, to call it simply faith would be misleading wouldn't it? Because you also put logic and consideration into it, correct?

Well guess what, so do I. The fact that people don't (and never did) raise from the dead has nothing to do with it.

When dealing with faith there is no logic and or consideration. If it were possible to make a logical choice based on fact and experience. Then there would simply be no need for faith. Since ample evidence and proof would be there. Now consideration is a different story.  And I don't have an easy time believing in the "Christian God", mainly because the entire concept is ludicrous and laudable at best. 

I find it hilarious that you claim WE are ignorant for assuming we know for a fact god doesn't exist when you're making an equally blind assumption that he does. "Oh wait!" I hear you cry! "Mine is not a blind assumption because it is based on a book that has been around for two thousand years!"

Well, I got news for you. There are Hindu texts a lot older than that, so surely using your logic they must be more correct than the bible right? Or what about the Ancient Egyptian gods? Why do you worship Jehovah and not Apophis?

The feelings you have towards them are the exact same I have towards the Bible – worthless pieces of shit written by crazy old men living in caves. That somehow, inexplicably have fooled billions of people down the years.  And the feelings you probably have towards Hindus are ones I have towards people of your faith – nice people, but misguided fools

This entire segment of your response is acting under the assumption that I was referring to a Judeo-Christian text. Now I will be the first to agree that the common response of Christians to other religions. Even those that are older including Gnostic religions is with disdain. Furthermore ignorance is the state of not knowing.  Atheists and those of the faith are equally as ignorant since no-one knows the answer. As to the reason more people don't worship Egyptian Gods or the Hindu gods simply put they weren't the winners.  And to set you straight on one point. I do not think anyone is a nice misguided fool. I do believe people make poor decisions because they have insufficient information or the lack of desire to do better.

You seem to be claiming that because the human race has had a violent past that this is not only proof of our need of salvation, but that it validates you faith in Jesus. This is bull.

Firstly, I could pick any historical religious figure and do what you just did. 
"We have killed, murdered, raped and continued to commit sins since Muhammad (peace be upon him) walked the earth. Therefore Islam is the one a true religion." 
"We have killed, murdered, raped and continued to give into desire since Buddha walked the earth. Therefore Buddhism is the only true path to Nirvana." 
See what I mean?

Secondly, the human race "killed, murdered & raped" for the 150 thousand years prior to Christ's supposed visit? So what exactly does that prove? Except that we evolved from primates who "killed, murdered & raped" and in turn evolved from mammals that "killed, murdered & raped".

Excellent point on this one.  Pick your prophet and you can most definitely say people continued to act like people.  That particular statement was more of a jab at Christians / Muslims than anything.  Since according to the 4 Canonical Gospels, followers of Christ are supposed to give up all ties beyond the faith.  Also the faithful are supposed to attempt to live outside of sin. Which is neither here nor there.  As to animals including primates, as far as I know they do not commit murder. Yes they kill in order to eat, that is natural order though. Rape is a touchy subject though, since in nature those that mate are the dominants. So I am not certain that a primate is capable of rape as we know it. 

You realise your complaining about other Christians to a forum full of Atheists right…? But never-the-less I believe I have an answer for you. People commit horrible acts in the name of God because they need to validate their actions. Exactly like people committing good acts need to.

Yes I was very well of what I had written and have my reason for doing so.  And your are incorrect they don't need to validate their actions. It is moral expediency plain and simple. The current system of rules does not allow me to take this course of action. So if I blame a greater power then it is okay and the blame is now shifted to that greater power. In psychology they call it transference.  If someone commits a good act feels the need to be validated then how good of an act is it really? Just a thought for you.

As had already been stated: Nihilism is VERY different from Atheism. Oh, and the point about 'why don't you just kill yourself" I find pretty fucked up. It also shows your naivety fairly well I feel. I LOVE life. More than you ever could because I believe it is the only one I get, so I'm going to live it to the fullest. Suffering and happiness come in equal measure I think, and you cannot have one without the other. But even at my lowest point I would never consider suicide. It would be a waste of the miracle that is life in this miracle-less universe.

On the flip-side, why don't you just kill yourself so you could be with God. Oh, I know suicide is a sin, but then God forgives doesn't he? You could be with him tomorrow. Why don't you do it?

At this point we are going to have to just disagree. I don't personally believe human life has any particular value. And honestly if you are an person who believe life has no meaning and the logical end is nothingness. Other than the instinct to preserve your life what point is there? That is the logical outcome of Nihilism. Nothingness, Atheists are a starkly different group of people and for the most part very pleasant to be around. You ask why I don't kill myself? Well I am a father so that is a pretty good start. Life is precious and should not be wasted that is a second.  Third I am in no hurry to find out if there is an after life. I am quite content here and have about 60 years life in my natural lifespan that I very much look forward to enjoying.  Happiness / Suffering equation not even touching that again and I was quite stupid to bring it up. Since it is a deeply personal experience and only an individual knows how it applies to them.

So only Christians are 'truly' happy? Do you have any idea how arrogant and preposterous that makes you sound? So the four-point-something BILLION people who don't believe in your personal adult fair tale are only, what? Marginally happy? Partly Happy?

Are are we all actually depressed it's just nobody has told us?

If I cared about sounding arrogant, I don't think I would be posting on this forum.  Christians aren't happy, they are a bunch of miserable people on the whole from what I have seen. People in swingers clubs, now those are some happy people. Drunks, Children are more examples of happy people. But everybody at some point in there life well suffer bouts of depression. That is just normal and part of the human condition.  And no-one is ever 100% happy all of the time unless they are crazy.

What?!? God created Atheists to test the faithful? So you're telling me that God created me the way I am so I'd knock dents in your personal faith? Oh wait! "Not because he forced us to believe but to come in faith." So he doesn't want to force you to believe but he "creates Atheists." So how does he do that without forcing us not to believe? So, here I am, without the supposedly sacred Freewill that you seem to be aloud testing your faith. That's all fine and well, but what about my soul? I go to Hell just 'cause God wanted a few Atheists running about causing trouble for the faithful. Your God sounds like a bit of a dick to me.

LMAO, A bit of a dick, try a massive fucking prick.  Since you like bringing up the Christian god so damn much let me talk about him for a bit. Old Testament, he is running around competing against Samarian, Hitities, Canaanites, Egyptian gods going my children are rebellious. At no point does he claim the other people just the Jewish. He sits there and condemns the faithful and puts them through hell so people will sing his praise. He supposedly creates Lucifer the light bringer as the Angel of Fidelity in order to test the faith. Yea, that is fucking beautiful. Then orders genocide against everyone who does not follow his belief. Welcome to the wonderful world of monotheism. So we move in to the New Testament, which has 4 gospels and 4 different fucking messages. Now how fucked up is that? Mark says "The end of the world is here, repent, repent." and then Matthew says "Follow the law, follow the law, follow the law", you have Luke who says "Ooops we were wrong, so here is how you set up the church and keep your followers." and John who says you all fucked up for taking it literally the kingdom of heaven is already here and the spiritual freedom that comes with practicing the faith.  So lets put it this way, Mark wasn't there. Matthew was, Luke is a liar and John was probably high. So what do we know about him from the new testament, well if Christ was his only son. He willing had him tortured, executed and ridiculed. Oh yea that was part of the plan. Nice going god. I would never submit my child to that and would be quite adamant about inflicting grievous bodily harm to anyone who tried.

 The argument that because science doesn't know everything therefore God exists is VERY flawed logic. Using this logic then the likelihood of God existing 1000yrs ago was greater and his likelihood of him existing 1000yrs from now would be less so. This is known as "God of the gaps" theory amongst theologians. And they stay clear of it. So should you.

But for a moment let's  say that a god-like being (ie. a supernatural creator of existence) does exist. How in the name of the flying spaghetti monster DO YOU KNOW IT IS YOUR GOD? You believe what you believe (I'm assuming here) because that is what your parents taught you to believe. Why are you so sure its the Christian god that exists?

Is it that feeling you get inside when you commune with God? That euphoria that builds up first inside your stomach and makes it way towards you heart? Is that how you KNOW without a single shadow of a doubt that YOU'RE right and everyone else is wrong?

What? You don't think I use to get that when I believed? You don't think the Muslims, Hindus et all get that too? It's a chemical reaction inside your brain, that's all.

First and foremost I do not commune with any god. My faith teaches that prayers fall on empty ears. The only thing you can hope to get is that which you earn for yourself. Through you works and your own merit.  And if there is all powerful being is it my god? Most likely not if I am not mistaken I said that god would be unknowable and unquantifiable. 

Oh yea fyi I consider God and the Universe as the same exact thing.  The fact science does not know everything does not guarantee the existence of a creator. But it also does not remove that possibility. Perhaps you should remember faith requires no justifications. And people will use any means to maintain their beliefs. Including you.